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mattdw 472 ( +1 | -1 )
GK Forum v Fritz: Round 1 - Page 3 The old thread was full, so I've moved the last couple of messages into here for continuity:

Ccmcacollister:
board board #5448348 for your ease of analysis, to avoid a half page of scroll, and so save
All our energies for baffline & battling the Evil Fritz, scourge of the boards...
***
For anyone interested in Smothered Mates, here is a potential S.Mate I found while looking at a liquidating sequence, following from a 7.Be2 line. Since this was off the cuff moves, for obtaining feel of the line just for myself, I dont expect it to be unavoidable by Fritz T. Box. But part of my analytical philosophy is to see & know the potentialities of a game/position as much/deeply as possible. My feeling that if Or if this line happened to be deeper than Fritz was looking, beyond his horizon, or showing favorable as far as it looks to, then when the mate comes within Horizon, he might have to do something unpleasant to stop it, some move(s) earlier. It can certainly chose other than playing ...f5 there, like Rae8 or others. But as I said, for those who like Smother Mates, this one is just a little bit different, as WT could also just win the Queen and also there is not chance to capture the Nf7.
*** **** *** **** *** **** *** **** *** **** *** **** *** **** ***
after 6.c3 Ng-e7 7. Be2 Bxd4 8. Bxd4 Nxd4 9. Qxd4 Qg6 10. Bf3 O-O
11. O-O b6
12. Nd2 d6 13. g3 Bb7
14. Rf-e1 f5
15. exf5 Nxf5
16. Qc4+ d5 17. Bxd5+ Bxd5 18. Qxd5+ Kh8 19. Re6 Qh5 20. Re5 Qh3
21. Nf3 Ra-e8
22. Rxe8 Rxe8 23. Ng5 Qg4
24. Nf7+ Kg8
25. Nh6+ Kh8 26. Qg8+ Rxg8 27. Nf7+
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[I am trying out that move structure to see if it might be easier to keep track of ones place in the game, without a notecard or such annoyances ?! Any thoughts?]
[Pardon me, I mean publishable thoughts now, please ... :]
********************************************
As for realgame analysis, I've started mine with Be2 for the reason that I noted in some of the d-base games in presented in this thread that the f3 square & perhaps
associated WT squares complex can become very weakened for WT in some games.
Seem to recall Bg2 being played in one game as well. Not sure if I forwarded it to here tho!?
I plan to look at every check and capture move, as per my standard approach. And all the same for responses to whatever we might do. Because my Chess Trainer
friend, an FM, tells me to Always Check for Check! And I think he is right, so it has become part of my standard pre-selection procedure. And for Corr. there can be some pretty stunning captures made, especially by Boxes, so I Dont want to be caught napping by the infernal machina ! But now, am just getting started. So here goes . . .
oh, Would like to mention that Fritzy often enjoys playing ...Ne5 in similar positions from the Goring. Perhaps that tendency will carry over here?

If we might want to play on the Queenside ... then instead of a liquidation play, the moves of b4 and a4 kicking and threatening the Bishop might be useful with correct timing, and so I'll want to know what would be best application of that idea
. Perhaps something like Be2 o-o / b4 Bb6 / a4 a-pawn-moves by BL. etc.
***
Also it seems to me that I saw Nc2 played here in one of the sample games?! Will want to see what that is about too ...
And also to look at a Bc4 move for us, that mattdw likes as being most aggressive. Which I think is usually the case ... if Ne5 or such wont hurt it. It is nice that it can forstall ...d5 from there yet attack f7 and BL Kingside. Tho positionally Be3/Bf3 or Bg2 would pressure ...d5, we dont get the dual use of K-side
aiming.
Fischer and Velimirovic are both "Bc4 guys" in the Sicilian. I cant help but think they would like it here if there is no negative factor against it. Besides the obvious one of tiny time loss if BL were to play ...a6 and ...b5 which hardly seems a concern tho. Unless we were to o-o-o !? hmmm }8-]
#################
I HAve done that in the Scotch. But it was in OTB Class play, and was permitted to set up as WT just like a Yugoslav attack vs a Dragon. So must have been ceded
a tempo to get there. But it worked nicely there. Just something to kick around in some corner of our mind, perhaps? It interests me just to look at, having no idea how that might play in this postion. His Bb6 or Ba7 would seem to get in the way of a Q-side assault tho.
Beware these Blindfold Thoughts! It may well be they should be given a cigarette and shot at dawn !!




Mossberg4570:
Bc4 is the mainline.

7. Be2 is refuted by 7... d5
7. Bd3 loses a pawn with no compensation.
7. Bb5 was played by Blackburne in 1881 and I can't find a win by white since.

Alternatives are 7. g3, 7. f4, 7. Nc2

7. Nc2 would work great if black plays Bxe3, but with 7... d6 or 7... Bb6 black stands better.

7. g2 and 7. f4 haven't been played much, and with poor results.

We REALLY ought to stick to the mainline for now. Exotic moves aren't going to get us anywhere against a computer.



Me:
I'm just about to go out for a bit, I'll have a good read and look into the suggestions and comment further in a few hours. Thanks for the input!
spurtus 14 ( +1 | -1 )
bc4 not because its book, but because it belongs on this square....black will play 0-0 or d pawn. neither worries white...yet ( I hope!)
sough 11 ( +1 | -1 )
why not Be2? I like Be2 so far. In Bc4 black will play Ne5 driving it back to Be2 so why not play it now? Can someone explain why Bc4 is better than Be2?
basbos 0 ( +1 | -1 )
I'm for BC4
luckypawn 34 ( +1 | -1 )
sough The way I see it, (and I might be wrong), putting B on e2 would only give it control to extra squares that the queen already controlled, and the d1-h5 diagonal doesn't seem to need too much pressure at the moment. By putting the bishop on c4 we'll put more pressure on black, without any noticable or alarming dangers.

So, I'm for Bc4 too. Nothing else seems nearly as good
sough 5 ( +1 | -1 )
Yes but our next move after Bc4 will be Be2, so why not play now?
luckypawn 46 ( +1 | -1 )
Good point I'm sorry, I should have read your first post more carefully...I ought to think about it more.

At first glance, I think that a Bishop on e2 will make more sense if black's knight is on e5, and their knight probably wouldn't be on e5 if we didn't originally play Bc5. That either has significance, or is nothing but pointless philosophy. I hope someone who has a better idea will answer, I wonder the same thing.
luckypawn 0 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry Bc4, not 5
sough 9 ( +1 | -1 )
Losing a little steam I see Do we want to continue this game? Probably shoud forge ahead or pack it in now.
far1ey 11 ( +1 | -1 )
Having the same thought as sough. A little less talk and more action would be good.
mattdw 22 ( +1 | -1 )
Ok, let's just play Bc4. Sorry about the delay again, I'm currently without the internet on my computer so can't be near to online all the time. Anyway, let's go for Bc4 seeing as no one really objects and has been rightly pointed out we need to keep some momentum.
mattdw 18 ( +1 | -1 )
7. Bc4 ...and Fritz plays: 7...Ne5

This leaves us with what people were talking about earlier, probably having to move the Bishop back to e2 - or we could play Nd2 and defend the bishop?
ccmcacollister 51 ( +1 | -1 )
There we Go ... Yeah, Ne5 is like somekind of Box-knee-jerk for Fritz ...Part of why he loses to 2.d4
And Bc4 is like that little hammer the doctor uses ... :)
Let's see what this thingy looks like today. hmmm, where's my stethescope ... No wait, cant see thru a stethescope .... okay. Better do a micro-scopic exam at this time.
Tossing about in the back of the mind; What might we do here to make this position more winnish? More Active? More Space? Whats the Rx?
ccmcacollister 39 ( +1 | -1 )
Okay ... Something disappointing to see ... that ...Ne5 there (a very computerish move) shows up in the general GK d-base 267 times! The #1 response. More than 3 times the frequency of the number two response of about 83 or therebouts.
***
If anyone is interested in a thought exercise ... Can you give 5 or more reasons why ...Ne5 is an inferior move there? I've got 5 or six so far, I forget which. If anyone is game to list em;
I'll start with one ... #1 It reduces the pressure on the Nd4 .
spurtus 51 ( +1 | -1 )
Fritz! I fear you have a problem ..ie..FRITZ!!! muhahhaahhah! ..sorry... Design by comittee likely not to work, i hope you prove me wrong!

But hey I'm not that negative, what about Nd2?..(development) got to remember the only way to win vs FRITZ is to 'timely!' sack the biggest material with attention to horizon? (9-12 moves?) and then follow it up with best play which I'm certain this team can do.. the question is who will break,when,will it be approved and will you follow it up?

Good luck!

Spurt.

NB. I'll be seriously impressed if you win.
ccmcacollister 98 ( +1 | -1 )
A Very Funny Line ... from a model where WT seeks activity at expense of pawn structure. Surely Fritz would not play into, but amusing trappiness by the Human side, for a turnabout :))
***
7. . . . Ne5
8. Bb3 Ng4
9. O-O Nxe3
10.fxe3 Qh6
11.Bxf7+ Kd8
12.Ne6+
******
I'd like to nominate Candidates of Be2 or Bb3 .The idea of trading off Bc4 doesnt appeal to me, even if playable, & despite the BL N has moved so many times. I think it is a pseudo-development at Ne5 and may bring BL even more loss of time soon. A central target to feed us tempos toward a larger pawn center, perhaps?
***
Wonder if Nb5 or Nf5 will become interesting elements at some point? Wonder where our QN best goes? If we can play fe and e5 in a bit without getting too lose?
Or better to forgo an e5 if possible? If Bb3, would f3 formation be of interest, if we could hold it from a ...d5 break. Or neutralize effects of such ...
***
The d-base at GK seems quite active in this opening. Last move I noticed 21 different tries for WT. Maybe there's some more interesting Candidates there now.
mossberg4570 46 ( +1 | -1 )
I think Be2 is just fine The problem I see with Nd2 is Qg6, where we play Bf1 or lose a pawn.

Moving the bishop twice isn't a big deal. White isn't going to fall behind in development, and e2 is a fine square for the bishop (it wasn't before because of 7. Be2 d5, where after 7. Bc4 Ne5 8. Be2 d5 isn't nearly as strong, simply because black's forced to retreat after 9. f4).

7... Ne5 isn't played much anymore, that I can find, and I think it's due to the loss of time when the inevitable f4 comes. I would have played 7.... O-O, myself.
ganstaman 96 ( +1 | -1 )
Things I'd play in blitz w/o analyzing too much Ok, I guess if I want to advocate this move, I should do some analysis, but I don't have the time right now. If it looks good to you, maybe help me out?

mossberg4570 says 8. Nd2 Qg6 and we lose a pawn. I agreed, but then figure, why not just give up the pawn and move on... Think of all our potential piece play and open lines (and maybe even regaining the pawn)! In my quick analysis, I get 8. Nd2 Qg6 9. Qe2 Qxg2 10. 0-0-0 and we get Rdg1 soon (but be careful of Rxg7 because of N7g6, trapping in the rook.

So, this may be risky, but black has moved his queen 3 times and has only moved one pawn (which is now gone). We have control of the center and soon the g-file and our pieces are ready to go to work. I think that's enough to get the pawn back eventually.

Otherwise, I like Bb3 better than Be2, but that's just because I like the bishop on that diagonal better. I haven't tried any analysis on this line.
ccmcacollister 124 ( +1 | -1 )
Interesting Ideas coming out ... mossberg4570 As far as 7.Be2, I think ...d5 would have been well met by 8.Nd2. But it does seem even stronger now tho. :)
8.Be2 can still meet ...d5 by Nd2. But now there is the option of preceding it with f4 to consider.
(I do not consider Ne5 to be an actively placed piece, but a Target. Where would it even Go from e5?!)
If we do precede with f4 then we wont have to follow with the loosening e5 push since the pawn on e4 seems virtually poisoned against dxe4 Nxe4! ...with the kind of N activity Fritz is dreaming that it has, besides that it kicks the BL Q and gives the chance to trade for the Bc5 if desired.
Here is one line I analyzed thusfar, which is basically giving BL a French Defense that has both his knights misplaced, and consider WT quite favorable looking to me: Bc4 Ne5
8. Be2 d5
9. f4 Ne5-g6
10. Nd2 O-O
11. e5 Qb6
12. Nd2-b3 Bxd4
13. cxd4 f6
14. O-O
******
Also havent looked at 12.b4 yet there. But thinking BL may do better to retreat Nec6, not Ng6, but yet to review it. There it would replace the pressure vs Nd4 at least.
****
ganstaman I am still feeling some attraction to Bb3 too, on the face of it. Have a bit of concern that it might allow some type of ...gambit like ...d5 ...Bf5 to strike at d3 area, as a thought, but no hard analysis done yet.
mossberg4570 36 ( +1 | -1 )
Actually, Nd2 might be interesting Ganstaman's suggestion of 9. Qe2 was something I completely overlooked. I only glanced at the position anyhow. Shoulda spent more time on it (but that's why we're doing the committee thing, right?).

8. Nd2 Qg6 9. Qe2 Qxg2 10. O-O-O Qh3 and then what?

11. Nb5 Bd6 (forced) 12. Rg1 and then? Black's pieces look scattered and are tied down defending multiple threats.

12...O-O, 12... f6 12...?

Anyone see any alternative to 8...Qg6 we have to be aware of?

ccmcacollister 136 ( +1 | -1 )
ganstaman ... Something like this maybe!? A loose look ...
7. Bc4 Ne5
8. Nd2 Qg6
9. Qe2 Qxg2
10. O-O-O Nxc4
11. Qxc4 Bxd4
12. Bxd4 Nc6
13. Rd-g1 Qh3
14. Rxg7 Qe6
15. Rh-g1 Qxc4
16. Nxc4 Nxd4
17. Rg8+ Rxg8
18. Rxg8+ Ke7
19. cxd4
and we pick the h-pawn for plus one. Its just too bad that it can take off pieces on c4 and perhaps d4 immediately like that tho, or What a hunt there might be, having Both his King and Queen looking for a Home at the Same Time! That is quite
interesting. But like mossberg suggest ... will Fritz really try Qg6 at all then, if he cant keep a pawn? What else might go on ... ?
Perhaps he'd like to finish natural development or b) look for some activity increase?
If he cant grab some Stuff from us ?!:)
I think it was mattdw & spurtus also mentioned the immediate 8.Nd2 thought here.
Must admit some qualm at losing that very nice WT Bishop tho, if Fritz does not try to grab the stuff and just plays normally. For then we also let him trade that Ne5 for it, which I'd rather see become a whipping post for pawns ... unless we get something concrete.
We are definately the side with the chances here. Let's not allow it to dissipate without weeping and gnashing of teeth! Or something like that .... }8-)
ccmcacollister 46 ( +1 | -1 )
PROBLEM: 8.Nd2 But What if FZ just eliminates the Bc4 before even trying Qg6 (as a matter of logic, why would it go after a pawn that has a ready defender) Nxc4 and we lose out target N, and our nice Bishop, plus changes position character markedly that we did not get in Qe2 first.
And still doubts if it plays ...Qg6 as there is Kf1 defense, g3, or o-o. (didnt look if Good Defenses, just being Present ... suspect no ...Qg6 move at all if it has one adequate defense that does not compromise us unduly .
sough 8 ( +1 | -1 )
Be2 I vote for Be2 here, pretty mainline, gears up for the upcoming fight in the middlegame.
thumper 2 ( +1 | -1 )
OK Craig Where's our board? ;)
basbos 20 ( +1 | -1 )
Just wanted to celebrate the new neat feature from GK team
here is our game board


:)
basbos 32 ( +1 | -1 )
I'm for Be2 . I think it is not wise to give fritz the chance to trade the knight for the bishop. We are in a need of this bishop in this open game. As Carig mentioned Ne5 reduced the pressure on d4 square and in my humble opinion we managed to win a move from fritz its position in the center of the board in slightly better than ours.
ccmcacollister 42 ( +1 | -1 )
hmmm .... More to think about: I got this today in a PM from a player over 2350, so's only fair to post the idea. Then I'll see if I can reveal his 'Secret Identity' ....
Another potential Gambit idea here ...

"If the pawn sac of 7. Bc4 is sound, and I would guess that it is this being the main line and all, 8. Bb3 seems to be more consistant than Be2. After 8. Bb3 Qg6 9. OO Qe4: 10. Nbd2 Qg6 11. Bc2 Qany 12. b4 White seems to have more than enough for his pawn. "
mattdw 39 ( +1 | -1 )
8. Bb3 Looks interesting, but what do you think of our position if black doesn't take the pawn and plays 8...d6 ? I don't think it looks too bad, it would be wise to ignore the GK database here as the vast majority (of a very small number) of the games played have black with usually more than 100 elo points over white. I like white's position after the suggested line.
ccmcacollister 32 ( +1 | -1 )
hmmm I'm starting to like Nd2 like ganstamans line now. Looks like Be2 Qg6 Bf3 gets the B off anyway. Tho playing the move probably stops Qg6 being played?
But I'm a bit addled still, and go with whatever comes next. Just not seeing things so clearly yet. Probably best to take a break here and spectate awhile.
ccmcacollister 32 ( +1 | -1 )
hmmm I'm starting to like Nd2 like ganstamans line now. Looks like Be2 Qg6 Bf3 gets the B off anyway. Tho playing the move probably stops Qg6 being played?
But I'm a bit addled still, and go with whatever comes next. Just not seeing things so clearly yet. Probably best to take a break here and spectate awhile.
ccmcacollister 2 ( +1 | -1 )
ok. yeah ... see what I mean !? !
mattdw 85 ( +1 | -1 )
So what moves do we still have in the picture? It's Be2, Bb3 or Nd2 isn't it? (tell me if I've missed any in from the above discussion). To be honest I'm really stuck, I really like the look of the position from mossberg4570's suggestion via Nd2:

8. Nd2 Qg6
9. Qe2 Qxg2
10. O-O-O Qh3
11. Nb5 Bd6
12. Rg1

However, I don't know if Fritz would play 8...Qg6 - I think it could go for 8...d6 instead.

From Be2 we could probably expect either:

8. Be2 Qg6 9. O-O d6
or
8. Be2 d5 9. O-O O-O

I don't like the look of the second one that much, the first looks marginally better I think.

Then there is Bb3, we might get either:
8. Bb3 Qg6 9. OO Qe4: 10. Nbd2 Qg6 11. Bc2 Qany 12. b4
or
8. Bb3 d6 9. O-O O-O etc.. (this being very similar to the second variation from Be2, I prefer this one though).


So what is the current thought on this? Any overriding preference? I don't want to have too much say as I feel my strategic skills are far too lacking to really contribute something worthwhile to a move that seems as important as this one in determining the direction of the game.

mattdw 21 ( +1 | -1 )
A bit of lost momentum there, I think we better just play the mainline: Be2 if there are no futher thoughts or overwhelming support for something else, I will make Be2 our move early this afternoon (GMT).
mattdw 58 ( +1 | -1 )
8. Be2 and Fritz plays... 8...d5

Current position:


(The FEN being: r1b1k2r/ppppnppp/5q2/2b1n3/3NP3/2P1B3/PP2BPPP/RN1QK2R B KQkq - 0 1, so we can just alter it rather than have to type it all out from scratch again).
If you want to mess around with the analysis board, the game can be found here: board #5448348

I would say that 9. 0-0 looks fine to me, I can't see a good reason not to play it.
bittersweet_ballad 1 ( +1 | -1 )
How about 9.f4?
far1ey 0 ( +1 | -1 )
Or Nb5?
luckypawn 35 ( +1 | -1 )
Nd2 Nd2 looks good to me

9. 0-0 dxe4 and it seems difficult to get their pawn back.

9.Nb5 Qc3 (if they play it) will put more pressure on the e4 pawn and will probably end up in us losing it. Also, it will probably be soon followed by a6 and our knight will be forced back.

I don't think there's anything wrong with f4, but I like Nd2 more to develop the knight.
luckypawn 1 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry I meant 9. Nb5 Qc6, not Qc3
luckypawn 9 ( +1 | -1 )
I changed my mind about Nb5 9.Nb5 Qc3
10.exd5 seems to look good for white, maybe they won't play Qc3 after all...


mossberg4570 16 ( +1 | -1 )
9. O-O Don't sweat the pawn. This IS the scotch game, afterall.

9. O-O O-O
10. f4 and we're good

If 9. O-O dxe5
10. Nd2 is fine. If black tries to hold onto the pawn we'll get a strong attack.
luckypawn 46 ( +1 | -1 )
9.0-0 I guess you're right about it, and dxe5 is a good move for us after all.... as bogg pointed out to me in a private message, the best response for 0-0 dxe4 on both sides would probably be:

10.Nb5 Bb6 11. Bxb6 Qxb6 12. Qd4 Qxd4 13. cxd4
10.Nb5 Qc6 (Qb6) 11. Bxc5 Qxc5 12. Qd4 Qxd4 13. cxd4

and White seems to be significantly better if not winning in all lines.

So the pawn-being-eaten worry was a very false alarm.
far1ey 4 ( +1 | -1 )
Very well then I vote 0-0!
sough 2 ( +1 | -1 )
0-0 I vote to castle
mattdw 16 ( +1 | -1 )
0-0 I'm for 0-0 still too, looks like everyone agrees (or at least any people who don't haven't posted!). Let's castle and see what Fritz plays...(probably 0-0 too) back in a moment...
mattdw 50 ( +1 | -1 )
And Fritz plays... 9...O-O

Thus, so far:
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. d4 exd4
4. Nxd4 Bc5
5. Be3 Qf6
6. c3 Ng-e7
7. Bc4 Ne5
8. Be2 d5
9. O-O O-O


Analysis board available here: board #5448348

The database suggests either 10. f4 or 10. Nd2, I'm going to investigate a bit futher tomorrow and make any other suggestions that might come to mind.

FEN template:
r1b2rk1/ppp1nppp/5q2/2bpn3/3NP3/2P1B3/PP2BPPP/RN1Q1RK1 W - 0 1
ganstaman 57 ( +1 | -1 )
Without thinking much, I like the look of 10. f4, but certainly we should analyze a bit before making such a kingside commitment.

Also, I've learned not to blindly trust the database so much. I know the sample size is much smaller in this example, but check out: -> gameknot.com

Drops a full piece and yet wins 80% of the time. Perhaps if we checked with a larger database instead it could be more helpful. Well, off to thinking about it....
ganstaman 28 ( +1 | -1 )
my link Hmmm, try this?

-> gameknot.com

Nope, well, click it and hit the '<< back' button (not on your browser, but the database one). Or try the moves 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 Be7 5. dxe5 dxe5 6. Qd5 and maybe 6...Nh6

eh, whatever
mattdw 44 ( +1 | -1 )
Any more thoughts? I see what you mean ganstaman, though after a quick bit of research with the Chessbase database it seems that 10. f4 is the popular move with 2500+ players (a small sample of 6 games, 5 of which played 10. f4 one of which played 10. Nd2). I don't like to rely on other peoples moves (it's something I avoid in my own games) but I would be hard pushed so suggest something different to five 2500+ players in a situation like this!
luckypawn 19 ( +1 | -1 )
f4 or Nd2? f4 seems a little better....it'll get rid of the knight on e5 so that we can move the queen towards d3, if we'd ever want to, and which we wouldn't easily be able to do with Nd2, maybe?

In any case, f4 seems to be better.
luckypawn 44 ( +1 | -1 )
on second thought Qd3 doesn't seem like a move in the near future....that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to like f4 more than Nd2.

But f4 still looks better. Maybe I'm biased because 5/6 players more than 2500 played it, but as mattdw mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a good reason to suggest anything else.
thumper 15 ( +1 | -1 )
I like f4 It not only bumps the e5 knight, it puts more pressure on the 5th rank. It also starts to compress black and open attack lines for white.